100 thoughts on “Bishop Barron Comments on Stephen Fry, Job, and Suffering”

  1. So having a child with bone cancer is another route to something larger…obviously the bishop has never had a child or wasn't allowed to. He is not in a position to talk to a parent of 
    such fatuous nonsense.

  2. I wonder if the explanation given doesn't admit to the idea of such a thing as "genuine evil"; the sort of happening that there is no possibility of its being of ultimate benefit. Examples would perhaps be the rape of a child, torture of the innocent, and so on. One could certainly argue that God can squeeze the good out of anything, as such speculation is just that, metaphysical notions. A second difficulty comes from accepting that very idea. Do ends justify means? The final and most troubling thing to consider or suppose is that God in fact lets, permits, allows such things to occur. I see no reason to think God intervenes and so the idea that God lets things happens is functionally no different to saying God cannot prevent such things from happening. There are difficulties with either prospect.

    I don't find inflammatory posturing that seems alive among atheist and theistic apologetic starlets interesting, but if one merely allows that God lets evil things happen and this implies God could have done otherwise but didn't, then the only possible way to make that work is that evil is in fact necessary. That's not just calamity, natural disaster and such, but that all manner of depravity one human being can inflict on others, necessary. We must then deny that ends don't justify means. I don't find that acceptable rationally. Fry would be right in much of his ranting as would Job.

    After God asks "Where were you when I hung the stars", Job is — or would have been if the author really had some reasonable response, but alas, the author made Job less feisty and rejoinder — morally astute and just to respond with the questions that begs: Where are you as humanity suffers, why do you allow it at all?

    If the response from God would then be "You wouldn't understand even if I told you", God and Christianity should happily accept every barb by every Job who has and ever will live.

    It seems to me morally irresponsible to suggest that a child can only obtain A, B, or C if that child is raped especially when A, B, and C are admittedly complete unknowns, much less "goods".

    Job and Fry aren't arrogant; they are moral and are right to criticize God's apparent unconcern and indifference for human suffering.

    Just a thought.

  3. Job's discovery was: humility. The Justice of God does not fully allow human understanding. Perhaps not surprising, given that God created the World, and, though humans are trying to understand the world, we are far from succeeding. What lies beyond us is the transcendent. God is not just the immanent but the transcendent; God is all. Appreciating this, we come to: humility. That is the proper attitude for living a good and moral life: gratitude, tolerance, and admission of ignorance.

  4. The fool.asks God to explain why why why & God sends him to hell where sin is in its fullness , to know why why why & there he saw the one who set out destroying the faith with all his Sodomic pals in the name of Reformation & next to him was his.leftist partner, booted Hillary the killary, partners conspired to crime.

  5. Atheism is nothing more than misguided passion. God loves atheists, because as the original comment proves, once an atheist gives in to God's love they are the most passionate witnesses. It's the lukewarm and apathetic that I feel sorry for. They just don't care at all and no witnessing of miracles like Padre Pio's fifty year long exile with the stigmata will convince them. The guy was a walking crucifix. And they could care less. Pray for the apathetic brothers and sisters. We need passion for holy mother church again, and amazement for the holy Eucharist.

  6. Your Excellency, your point of view is very much helpful. It reminded me of my advise to a dear friend to read the Book of Job in the face of great suffering. He committed suicide and possibly never read the commentary of the text, but it sure helped me to understand suffering. Your views are of startling clarity to me. many thanks for the 'World on Fire'.

  7. Thank you, dear Father for giving us this. I have so often been horrified at the arrogance of Stephen Fry, and his diatribes against the Faith. Whenever I have had things to suffer during life, of course I have accepted the suffering as redemptive, but, more than that, we should see that Our Blessed Lord, the Only-Begotten Son, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity – if He suffered to redeem mankind, then suffering is of the very greatest value if used correctly. I feel very sorry for Fry because in his brilliance – and he certainly is brilliant in so much of what he does and says – he is spiritually blind, and – it fills me with horror to say this – but suffering from the same over-weaning pride that sent Lucifer falling from Heaven into the Abyss. On another note: the Arabic peoples have a saying, "All sun makes a desert" – the idea being that we all need the showers, storms and rain-clouds in order to appreciate good times. Look at the misery of celebrities who apparently have wonderful lives but are never truly happy with their catalogue of divorce, remarriage and heaven knows what else. "All sun makes a desert".

  8. First argument just 'look over here' BS that answers not Stefan Fry's point.
    Second argument 'Good Friday' does however have some Merit in understanding 'meaningfulness of suffering'.
    I agree, though it does not either prove a God.

  9. Bishop Barron, Fake Conservative Priest. Gaygolio TRoll .. double talks.. one moment conservative , subtly leftist the next.

  10. The problem of evil will persist as long as 'God' is construed as an entity (however cleverly characterised) that stands over against 'creation'. When 'God' (male deity) is allowed to be a metaphor for Mystery (or what you will) in which opposites generated by thinking coincide, the problem goes away.

  11. Bishop Barron = what a phenomenal moron. He believes ridiculous ravings of ancient and illiterate goat herders from the Iron and Bronze Ages. What a dupe. The Bible? Greatest book of fiction ever created.

  12. I'm 4-years late to this party. I have been struggling with a heart and a lung condition from an unknown cause that, according to the current statistics and some of the best Medical minds, should have killed me more than a year ago. When I heard Stephen Fry's rant, I had to laugh.
    Most people would probably not fault me if I were to take the same point-of-view because of my condition. I submit that what Mr. Fry is displaying is not any kind empathy towards those children who are suffering from Bone Cancer.
    I submit that he probably thinks that Abortion is an acceptable "medical practice". What he has displayed is nothing more than sheer Arrogance and Pride in his mistaken belief that: (a) He knows more than the Creator of the Universe. (b) His role in this Universe is significant enough to warrant exultation. (c) The Universe revolves around his being. and (d) The Universe is somehow made devoid of any Miracles or Anything Good because these diseases and tragedies actually exist.
    We can either complain because there are very deep, dark nights. Or we can celebrate because those deep, dark nights allow us to see heavenly bodies that are otherwise unseen in the daylight. I have seen Aurora Borealis and it dances not for us, but for God!!

  13. Stephen Fry is conditioning the existence of good to the nonexistence of evil. It really fits in with the leftist mindset that lives in an unreal world and feeds on utopias.

  14. I agree what on a universal scale, anything that happens to us individually is relatively unremarkable. However, to us, that thing mean everything. If a parent has a child who dies from cancer, to the parent, that pain is unimaginable. We can't possibly have the perspective God has about all of creation, yet he MUST have/know what our perspective is. Why then does God allow such things to happen to us and to the most innocent of us (children)?

  15. There is a common arrogance associated with atheism: If I can't understand it, it must not exist. True scholarship comes from people who are humble enough to realize that they do not have all the answers.

  16. Fry has embraced the folly of Original Sin. He has, as all humanity has , "signed on" with the arrogance and narcissism that predicated the fall and brought evil into our relation with God and creation. "Self love" (the essence of same sex attraction and heterophobia), arrogance, hubris, all the human characters that continue to feed the break between God's righteousness and human evil find their well deserved hypocrisy in the lost ranting of Mr. Fry.

  17. How could Mr Fry be so concerned with Gods "afflicting" a child with bone cancer when he advocates for unlimited child killing (abortion).

  18. Of course you have heard the argument before because it remains valid from TA till the present day and theists have not been able to give a satisfactory answer.

  19. Fry's approach is a bit childish (some ppl call it "arrogant"). "World is full of pain, so there's no God". I am sorry, but it's quite possible that God exists AND He is "cruel". Period.. Little children in pain and dying at the age of 4 or 5? Little children kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered by insane (deprived of "free will") human monsters ? That makes NO ACCEPTABLE sense – that's JUST CRUEL. Regardless of "bigger picture". Children in pain aren't even capable of understanding the idea of "bigger picture". Their suffering is real, though. Or maybe they exist in order to make it possible for others to reach salvation (doctors, volunteers, caring parents)? Some ppl accept and condone such idea, despite it being simply repugnant – sentient beings aren't tools. At least, they shouldn't be. I believe in God. He created the Universe, He calls the shots. And we are mice in his lab. AUSCHWITZ MAKES SENSE !? "Have faith, it's part of bigger plan, you're just too dumb to understand it".

  20. We know for a fact that cancer is now is so widespread because of the poison in our food, environment and medications. Especially in children, cancer was not so prevalent a few decades back. How can God be blamed for people's greed. As a comedian Stephen Fry should know that some of the best comedians have suffered and they have evolved. He feels deeply for the suffering of others but maybe the answer is to push for a cure and cleaner living rather than ranting at God. We as God's special creations are the only ones who can choose what we become. We are meant to evolve.

  21. You are part of the liberal problem with the RC church you should go away and quickly. You think there is a good chance that all people are saved? Which bible do you read? Have you read revelation ?

  22. It's a lot like trying to bring a dog to the vet. They don't see the big picture, and how a small amount of discomfort can save their lives.

  23. Bad things happen because God gave us free will, if God intervened against everything bad that would eliminate our free will. Sometimes it's other people's free will that interferes with ours, like a man murdering a woman or a woman having an abortion to kill her child. The only time God can intervene is when we ask him to, when we pray and although God answers our prayers it might not be in the way we thought it would happen or asked for it. God has a plan for everything and everyone.

  24. After 11 years as a lung and pancreatic cancer survivor I recently suffered two strokes. As a faithful "Old Catholic" I know God will make me count them! (Old golf joke.) The strokes left me with only 60% of my hearing in one ear and total loss of hearing in the other. Also my balance is way off but I can slowly and very carefully get around with a walker. As I have done since I've become of age in the Church's eyes, I prayed for Our Father's unfailing help and strength through the intercession of Our Lady, Saint Joseph, Saint Brother Andre Bessett , Saint Padre Pio, and Saint Joseph Charbel. Also to anyone else out there interested in my cause. I really prayed humbly and fervently, and in a very vivid dream Saint Joseph appeared to me and said that if I wanted God's help the first thing I should do is put myself in the care of an an audiologist and a physical therapist. The dream was so real I would not talk about it for weeks. This is a very true story, and if you knew me, a Half Century Club PGA Golf Professional, you wouldn't be skeptical of it. Prayer works. I am working hard on my balance in VRT and Neural Elasticity exercises and making some process. Thank you, JMJ.

  25. This is a powerfully eloquent argument. However, it says nothing of the hope offered by God’s word for a future without suffering of any kind. Revelation 21:3,4. Psalms 37:9-11.

  26. when i was contemplating joining Fry, who was entertaining enough for me… I looked at his life– he is a sad individual, no joy or hope in him. Since I was attracted to joy and hope naturally I looked elsewhere. Fry will not go to hell for his atheism. Maybe he will be judged by his "relationships"- the one which he began as a senior with a boy. Then what followed his ware against all morality.

  27. It takes no more than adolescent intelligence to perceive that this world is a place often filled with horrors, man-made and natural, but Frye completely misses the point of our being here which is to learn how to respond to these horrors, either with gratitude for being alive or with love of self and others to alleviate the suffering. The central symbol of the Christian religion is the historical event of the crucifixion: a more horrific event would be hard to find. Why? Because this life is a test, the biggest one we will ever face. In the face of adversity we are invited to love not only our brothers but our enemies and the God who has brought us here. By so doing we are transformed to the something like our creator, the Great One, and fit, at least in part, to join His Being after we have become possible receptors of His Being.

    To achieve this becoming might very well take many such lifetimes -this is where I part with standard Christian theology which insists on a one chance with baptismal water as the defining event. If the idea of a single lifetime in which to learn and become what we need to be were true very few, if any of us, would achieve what we are here to do. So it seems that all the great traditions, Chistianity, Hindualism, Buddhism, and Judaism, have some part of the whole truth; while atheism has no inkling about how we got here or the point of our being here.
    So, yes Stephen, the world is a hellish place -but also you will have to admit a lovely place if you have ever been loved or have loved. What you seem to be missing is 'the why' question.

  28. Ah, this is one of my favorite videos of Bishop Barron; a Modern-Day Apostle after the mold of Paul. His natural ability to make Jesus’ life and teachings relevant to our time, to answer difficult questions that we all wrestle with, his way of making us look deep within and re-examine our own conscience, and even question our own arrogance — that is a Divine present for our generation. And the fact that Bishop Barron uses the predominant cultural medium of our time, YouTube, to spread the faith just nails the idea that God provides indeed. This video made me smile, even laugh, at my own retarded questions — about poverty, injustice, addictions, despair. There are many things we cannot fully comprehend. We can only pretend we do. Sort of like a kid on a beach trying to fill his bucket with the ocean. I guess the best posture of the heart is heavenward, to believe and humbly carry our own crosses…in order to share in the mysterious saving power of Jesus, and joyfully hope for the glory of the resurrection. In my life, I’ve seen this is possible.

  29. They call it "good" Friday because Jesus the trouble-maker died and Jesus the money-maker was born. Convincing people bad is good and good is bad is the art if the clergy. That's why they have clergy n the armies of the world, to convince trusting believers to kill on command. Stephen Fry wouldn't burn homosexuals. and 'heretics, at the stake, declare a crusade, or harass Jews for centuries, but the Bishop Barron's Church did and would again given the chance. I have no doubt the Bishop would give his Church his full support. Robert would read the Bible to the faithful while Stephen burned. Why was Church policy so harsh? What scriptures was it based On? Why did they stop? Why wouldn't they do it now (if they had the power)? Make another video, please.

  30. Again though … These are such huge leaps of faith. Bishop Barron is speculating and claiming to know the mind of God. He's claiming to know why the author placed suffering on the characters of a story.
    And again. If God is all powerful, why write such a tragedy? Filled with pain and suffering and genocide? Why not author a romantic comedy instead?

  31. This is a persuasive argument if you believe in God. To an atheist, it appears as either presuming God as a given (Story of Job) or inserting the god of the gaps. There is no rational argument for the existence of a god. Believers should admit that, if only to themselves.

  32. Suffering has nothing to do with the existence of the Almighty. To say that God doesn't exist because there is suffering in the world, is a non sequitur; it's like saying automakers don't exist because of tragic car accidents.
    Secondly, I've heard atheists invoke the insignificance of Earth relative to the vastness of the cosmos as proof of the inherent meaningless of life, all the while basing God's non-existence on the tragedy that befalls the puny inhabitants of that same insignificant planet — begging the question: "if Earth is so insignificant, then why should God care what happens to its puny inhabitants?" A question which, if they think it through, reveals that personal suffering is NOT proof of God's non-existence.
    And some (the intellectually honest) will concede that point, and hate the Almighty because of it — a reaction that's not entirely without merit.

  33. Do anybody know which Masonic lodge, Stephen Fry belongs to. Probably an entertainers lodge, full of rum types, I should imagine.

  34. Ivan karamazov- "all the wisdom in the world isn't worth the tears of a single child, I hold this to be true even if I'm wrong"

  35. Outrageously inadequate response to the actual lived experience and reality of horrendous natural suffering and evil. Maybe if you said those exact words about the ‘tiny sliver of experience’ as you (or your child) screamed in sustained agony, then you would have credibility. Or even if you spoke with the required humility and sadness in the face of this timeless problem, then you would have a credible message. Until then, you dishonour the reality, magnitude and depth of the problem of horrendous evil – and consequently alienate many from a Gospel which (in Job and the Psalms especially) gives due place to the outrage of unexplained and unexplainable evil and suffering.

  36. Astute observers will note that, while castigating Fry's formulation, Barron ultimately fails to substantively address the stubborn paradox of undeserved suffering. He thinks Fry is wrong, but doesn't — or cannot — say why. Fail.

  37. It is not surprising that we still struggle to believe that evil exists in this world. What does it matter which form it takes? Disease, suffering, our own unimaginable capacity for cruelty, envy, hatred towards each other? These are all instances of pure evil. But we, as Christ's disciples, already know how to grapple with all of this. Do not let yourself be beaten by evil, but rather subdue it with your love, with your kindness and compassion. It doesn't matter that evil exists, it is more important how we respond to it, how we choose to live our life and to touch the life of others. What we do, that's what matters. And what we do should be in accordance with what we believe. Our Lord Jesus Christ gave his life for us, he suffered and died on the cross and was then resurrected because it was not possible for death to rule over Him. Lord, our Father, allowed this to happen, not because He is cruel, but because His love for us is unimaginable, and so we also have to love Him with all our hearts and souls, and to love each other because of Him, like we love ourselves, like He loves us, as He told us to do. Evil and suffering are not evidence that God does not exist, rather the opposite. If someone out there needs proof, learn about blessed Herman the Cripple, whose memorial was on September 24th, two days ago, if anyone is still wondering about the reason for pain and suffering, go and find some information about him, he was a Benedictine monk, and think about what he accomplished by God's Grace and love, despite his physical condition, and just how difficult must have been for those around him to see him nailed to the cross of his life, just like our Lord, which he bore to the end, again like Him.

  38. "… there is a life beyond this one. …" There might be a life beyond the life of each mammal or bird — but the life might happen to be precisely like the preceding life. I have suggested the Milgrom Denial Hypothesis: The main problem with string theory is that the string theorists fail to realize that Milgrom is the Kepler of contemporary cosmology. Google "kroupa milgrom", "mcgaugh milgrom", "sanders milgrom", and "scarpa milgrom". Does string theory with the infinite nature hypothesis imply supersymmetry and no MOND? Does string theory with the finite nature hypothesis imply MOND and no supersymmetry? Is nature finite and digital? Does Wolfram's cosmological automaton repeat on a cycle with a constant period which is about (81.6±1.7) billion years?
    "Lessons from the Local Group (and beyond) on dark matter" by Pavel Kroupa, 2014
    Pipino, Giuseppe. "Evidences for Varying Speed of Light with Time." Journal of High Energy Physics, Gravitation and Cosmology 5, no. 2 (2019): 395-411.

  39. I wanted to know Father, are you a bit globalist? I’m not being rude. I seriously wanted to know. I sometimes wonder and others have said something on this too. I always have enjoyed listening to you.

  40. Judging by the comments here and my own life experience, there are countless people who, with a noticeable lack of humility, look down on the "poor and foolish" atheists and want to convert them (at best) or burn them at the proverbial stake 😉 The most superior, I suppose, are those who have found God/god/gods and have "converted" from atheism to some sort of religion 😉 Why is anybody's faith your business? Why don't you just believe in your God/god/gods and be happy about it? Enjoy your faith, cherish the extraordinary beauty of your temples, love your brothers and sisters, live and let others live in harmony. Last but not least, do not watch Fry if what he says bothers or upsets you. Peace be with all of you.

  41. I am sitting here with my jaw dropped and my mouth agape in utter astonishment. Mr Barron, you are an evil, evil man. May your god forgive you for this video.

  42. There should be more people from the catholic church using todays tools, to confront, very simplistic ideas on god, from atheists, and haters of religions.

    Atheists have a field day today, mainly due to the gov of all 1st world countries using behaviour modification, to dull everyones brains in to a numb state.

    This is why people are being fooled, that there is no evil in todays world. If society ever were to break down again, the 1st world countries would once again, ie there people, would start seeing real evil manifest, and they would believe.

    The populations of 1st world countries are so numbed by behaviour modification, to keep them knowing that evil is real.

    This is the main reason why religion is waning today.

    Because humans worked out how to essentially block the human brain from accessing evil in 1st world countries, does not mean its not still there hovering on the human race. It manifests when society breaks down mostly today, in countries.

    But for me, the church should use tools like the net and youtube to give responses to these serious haters, ie atheists, whom live with such hate for religion, even though they have very simplistic ideas of why they think its wrong.

    Gov have known for along time, that humans tune into evil. This is why 1st world countries have developed ways to limit peoples exposure to that awakening in 1st world countries. This is the only real reason why religion in 1st world countries has diminished.

    Evil is still there lurking, and if society ever broke down again, the public would once again see evil manifest in very real ways as humans saw before our modern times.

    Stephen frys arguments about god are just moronic as far as i am concerned. The universe has to be harsh, so that being born, and dying was a thing.

    Everyone is born with what ever life energy they are born with. Everyone is different in this, and this means some are born with very little. This is where you get kids being very sick, and what fry was talking about.

    So everyone is born with what ever life energy they are. That means some have alot and some have very little, and everyone is inbetween. This life force keeps you going and when it runs out you die. Thats the harsh realities of our universe, and how the when your born, essentially everyone starts the process of dying.

    The universe has to be harsh, so that death exists. Thats a fact of life, and i doubt you could live in a more perfect universe, even if you tried to make one from scratch.

    Even though i am not a practising catholic, i am glad to see some out there, ie the church using the net to answer such questions. The church does need to use more of todays media, to get across ideas to people that will not experience what our ancestors experienced, so are in denial, on the importance of such things as religion.

    I have heard all the arguments against religions for the masses, and they are mostly simplistic, biased views, and very limited arguments against the need for things like the catholic church.

    One of the best things humans ever did, was create the catholic church. Without it, there would be no western society. The people whom made the church, were for me, some of the smartest humans that must of ever lived. The teachings of the new testament are timeless, and for me, the catholic church is a very logical thing, in a world, that was devoid, of a centralised idea, of right and wrong.

    Never let anyone tell you that right and wrong do not exist. They do.

    This is why white peoples countries came to dominate, as white peoples countries worked out there is a right way to do things. The universe does not care how you do things, but the universe is set up, for a system of right and wrong, whether you like it or not. This is why white peoples countries came to dominate, as they worked out that there was a right way to do stuff.

    Other peoples countries, failed alot in there systems, as they came to conclusions that were essentially the wrong selfish way to do things.

    All those moaning about white peoples countries. Its not the fault of white people our ancestors worked out things, like the catholic church, and other things, to show the masses there is a right way in this universe to do things.

    The people whom made the catholic church must of been some of the smartest humans whom ever lived. Whether people like it or not, giving these teachings of the new testament to the masses, changed the cause of human history.

    If the catholic church had never existed. There would never of been a centralised idea of right and wrong. All different areas of the world, would of had there own selfish beliefs, and religions, and all believed they were right.

    The creation of the church, and centralising the idea of what was right and wrong, changed the human race for ever. Whether people like it or not.

    So for me, even though many of todays people do not think they need this guidance, one day a time will come when thy do, and they do not know it yet.

    So for me, the catholic church should use things like the net, to answer ignorant questions, or ideas about what they are and why people do need a religion like it.

  43. And yet, in your video 'On the limits of tolerance' you take a fellow theologian to task for over-complicating a particular biblical interpretation. Here you are guilty of the very same thing. The answer to your own question; 'Is a child dying of bone cancer ONLY terrible?' is a resounding, unequivocal yes. It is only terrible. There is no meaning, no purpose in bone cancer in an innocent child; only misery and pain. If Thomas Aquinas (and all people of faith) were honest, he would accept the logical outcome of his own proposition: that if infinite good existed, there would be no evil and suffering. But since you need to justify the existence of God in a world of mindboggling evil and inequality, you have to come up with a complicated ruse which essentially is nothing more than a pathetic 'Well, we can't really understand'.

    It is a non-answer and it makes your condescension all the more offensive. Stephen Fry is a highly educated man and I expect you are well aware that he will likely know the religious arguments and controversies more than most christians. And since you will never be the parent of a child dying of bone cancer it seems extraordinarily crass of you to call 'histrionics' his using bone cancer in children as an example of suffering, and as an attempt to deflect the attention away from the vacuity of your theology, it utterly fails.

  44. The fall and free will explain where we are today. The Creator asked us to be free and responsible. But our ancestors broke the agreement. Now Joshua through the greatest act of love to help us banish death and suffering offers us our place in the divine order once again. Yes we need to see the whole picture. Jesus has given us that through His ministry. We don't need round about answers to understand what has been clearly given to us. Salvation through the resurrection has been achieved. It's our choice to accept it or continue with life as it has been. Injustice is the calling card of the kingdom. God's love is the opposite. How it unveils is not always in our scope of understanding. So Faith finds its place.


  46. Oh I'm sorry 😀 Is your answer to the question of "Why is there needless suffering in world?" is; "God may have a bigger plan that we cannot comprehend." That is in no way helping with anything. Why are you worshipping a being with motives you cannot comprehend and that may or may not cause pain in children and babies many of whom die shortly after their birth for no good reason? Why is a supposedly perfect being a sadist is a very real question that no religion can answer with a straight line. Only meaningless conjecture, never substance.

  47. Baffles me how people still believe in religions, especially catholicism which is constantly being exposed in the courts all over the world as the biggest mass perpetrator of paedophilia and abuse of children the world has ever known. Catholic priests have wrecked the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. They have prayed on the weak and vulnerable, and then the church hierarchy up to the level of bishops have been show to have consistently covered the crimes up. They still continue to right now. It's a disgrace for the human race, and I do not know how they continue to exist as an organization. There are various fairy tales that talk of god, but that is all they are, pieces of fiction. There is the bible, there is the koran and there is the book of Mr Tickle from the Mister Men children's book series. All are fairy tales. Keep your children safe, keep them away from priests and bishops.

  48. I have a LOT simpler question than Stephen's. IF there is a god, why doesn't he just make himself KNOWN? And don't start in with Jesus, because that is not even REMOTELY what I am talking about. Communicating with each and every one of us, personally and DIRECTLY, in the physical realm of reality, could, should, and would be child's play, should it not? So why all the "hide and seek" antics and stupid games? Back in the days when the human race was FAR FAR less scientifically knowledgeable (and hopefully more superstitious, some of us anyway) than it is now, they at least got burning bushes (LOL). Now, we get nothing. There is no still/small voice, and if you hear one talking to you just like people normally talk to you in reality, that's not god, that's a very real, very serious medical problem.

    Doesn't it bother you, giving just one very narrow example, that all the stuff the bible credited to god's wrath, like volcanoes, storms, floods, "sickness", mental illness, etc. obviously required then and requires now no such input from such a being? Most all of the mechanisms are pretty well understood today, even in some cases readily predictable, and that wouldn't be possible if it were just some capricious god driven event. You'd have to think logically, that if the bible was inspired by god they wouldn't have got all of that wrong then, either, wouldn't you? Does it really surprise you that when people start to see all the gaping holes in the "logic" the bible puts forth, that they run the other way, or laugh, or just get irritated by the nonsense? And oh, your sarcastic "we don't need Stephen.." comment? Just sounds like a severe case of sour grapes coming from a guy who can't generate NEARLY the views. Just sayin'. I understand why some people feel a NEED for religion, but it most certainly does not make you superior, just gullible.

  49. Thank you for your commentary. We ALL experience a loss that rocks our very foundation. And it makes us question our Creator. But it is His profundity that we cannot comprehend. Free will invites evil occurrences into our existence. Not divinity. It is the price of sin.

  50. Fry's attitude gives no credence or worth in living a life in the first instance. He is angry and uses his intellect for cheap gratification of the senses. He closed himself off from all that life is. His mentality is strereo typical of the shallowness and disaffectedness that comes when you separate yourself from the holy spirit. God bless him.

  51. I recently watched a you tube video of a Chinese old lady being cared for by her grand children. They changed her nappies they bathed her, and when carrying her and placing her on the bed her grandson stumbled and they fell on the bed, this old lady and her grandson collapsed into loving laughter. I got it then, this old lady was LOVED she didn’t cry and complain like Fry or myself when things go badly, she I guess figured I cared for them when they were young now it’s a simple role reversal. One of the most moving parts was when a very young very sweet little girl was feeding granny, in the West we give young girls dolls, in this house this little girl had granny. Mr Fry and myself need to get over ourselves, put on a different pair of sunglasses and see the light. Thank you Bishop Barren

  52. So your argument is that suffering can eventually manafest as a blessing. So what about the people who never experiances that manafestation and only experianced the suffering. For who did they suffer?

  53. I have never had any time for Fry.He mouths off a lot about his concern for mental illness but does what exactly? Barron is right -we can do without Fry's opinionated blustering

  54. 1st) To give any credence to this bullshit, it is necessary to believe your stupid "holy" book. I see no compelling reason to do so. So, this whole "conversation" between two fictional characters is a worthless example. But …
    2nd) Even if we take this story as allegory, it still proves nothing about the existence or nature of a god-being. If anything, it gives more support to the idea that any god which might exist would be indifferent to such trivialities as subjective things like "good" and "evil". (What is evil to the slaughtered chicken is good to the starving human.)

    As I've said to you before Mr. Barron: you are just a pious poseur pretending to be intelligent. Only dimwits will be convinced by your pathetically weak arguments.

  55. Excellent video. The analogy of the page from the Lord of the Rings packs a wallop. Never heard that before.

    For a more "academic" breakdown of the problem of evil, Dr. Craig has put forward some excellent videos:



  56. Broken bones and inevitable death seem to be enough, why does there need to be much higher levels of suffering?

    To be honest at a certain point god's just being a dick.

  57. I hope Stephen Fry stays harmless. Not like all atheist 'friends' who are holding onto their ideas so hard that they end up crossing over onto the Satanic side themselves when trying to control everyone else including their brains along with trying to control everything that is wrong with 'mother' nature.

  58. Until the Catholic church unequivocally apologises to its many victims, stops hindering sex education in the Third World, compensates victims of pedophilia completely, stops its witch hunt for homosexual priests, and totally distances itself from child rapists (and that includes a certain Cardinal in Australia) I will not even begin to acknowledge the good it has done (and it has indeed done much good in the world).

  59. Frys argument is nothing but a straw man. The Bible identifies sin as a product of mans choice, not of God. It is Gods will that man have soul possession, free will.

    Also in the Christian worldview(specifically my own) this life is not even a blink in all of eternity. Not only do the followers of Christ no longer experience sin once they enter eternity, but they don’t even have the memories of trauma or pain. But instead experience freedom from those things.



  60. This goddamn hater: "notorious," "ferocious" atheist? Stupid, hateful fraud. This horrible teaches that every baby is born guilty; with a blood curse that runs back to supposedly to Garden of Eden thousands of years ago and the acts of some people who've been dead for hundreds or thousand or hundreds of thousands of generations, depending on whether this name calling reprobate believes in evolution of not. This self-serving hypocrite claims to believe that every guilty newborn will fry in hell for eternity if he or she does not participate, even unknowingly, in a religious ritual the he and ilk make their live administering.

    Not only that, this horrible name-calling man claims that unless every newborn guilty baby embraces the same theological doctrines as him the baby is doomed to hell. What a bunch of superstitious nonsense!

    Other rituals these whackjob perform pretend they consuming their own supposed deity in acts of faux cannibalism. What a bunch of whack jobs! They pretend wholesomeness and social utility while demanding their fellows not perform the normal human functions and thereby invite adverse selection into their "profession" of sexual pervert, specifically pedophiles who can uses the cloak of faux authority to gain access to child-victims.

    Worse, the bastards think they should be allowed to use the power of the state to tell other people what choices they should make. Fundamentally, they are anti-democratic because democracy is based on the premise that citizen in a self-government can discuss and form consensus on public issue. There can be no good faith effort at forming consensus when turds like this man assume they speak for and know "God's" mind. Anybody who disagrees with them is a heathen, apostate or…….as this fool say "notorious" and "ferocious."

    Bishop, if the God you claim to believe in exists, you are going to hell for the vanity of asserting that you know and speak his mind. Goddamn you for being such a crappy self-governing citizen. You are a hater, not somebody participating in good faith. I say you are 'notorious" and "ferocious" in your hate and self-righteous, hypocritical certainty.

    The greatest tool you have is your capacity for skeptical curiosity and the very thing you displace "religiously" with certainies–foolish superstitious ones, as it happens.

  61. I am struck that from the first day we became aware of 'suffering' in ALL its horrible diversity that we don't lift up our hands in thanks that so LITTLE of what COULD asail us actually does. For me the miracle of God in suffering is that for no virtue of our own we have so much to thank Him for but find such thanks silent in our mouths whereas our rails at 'God' slip out so readily.

  62. This is basically an iteration of “The Lord works in mysterious ways.”

    We need a better argument for the Atheists. The bone cancer in children is a strong argument and it needs a strong and definitive explanation. Asking people to trust God’s Providence in the face of cruelty leaves them vulnerable to Fry’s arguments.

  63. My wife died almost 4 years ago. Looking at her dead body in the hospital was the only time in my life in which I seriously doubted an afterlife and the existence of God. I have had doubts about the infallibility of Scripture, the historicity of miracles, the uniqueness of the Christian message, etc. All very "intellectual" doubts. But I always in the bottom of my heart never seriously doubted that there is some kind of "transcendent reality" above and beyond us. That has always been my fall back position.

    It's difficult finding "meaning" in suffering. It's one thing to do it in a theoretical way like C.S. Lewis does in "The Problem of Pain." But it's quite different to do it based upon personal suffering like Lewis does in "A Grief Observed" which was based on the death of Lewis' wife, and is a very "Job-like" reaction to personal suffering.

    Whenever we suffer, physically or emotionally, we have 2 choices: we can find "meaning" in it or (like Fry and the "new atheism") find "meaninglessness" in it. I choose to find "meaning" in the loss of my wife. It's the most difficult of the 2 choices, but it is the choice that I have made, as do multitudes of other believers in dealing with personal suffering!

  64. Unless Fry is an Antinatalist, he has no leg to stand on. This is a world in which such horrors happen. The only consistent position, if you are going to blame God, is to denounce the entire world, starting with human life. God may have been guilty at one point, but, by now we humans know better and cannot blame him for our own choice to procreate, and continue the species. Thus, Stephen Fry, you must blame every mother who brings a child into the world, knowing what potential for suffering and evil is here. And this could be extended, especially, to Christian mothers, who risk bringing a child into a world where their immortal soul dangles over the precipice of eternal hell; the horrors of which are infinitely worse (as she believes). As for the counter-argument, it is unconvincing. If we see only a fraction of a page, or a bit of an incomprehensible theorem, how are we justified in believing anything or making any argument? Nevermind assuming that, because God is so transcendent, everything must be for the best, including the most obvious injustices and insurmountable tragedies, — we cannot even trust any of our perceptions that there is a God. Oh great, I think I just talked myself out of Catholicism. :/

  65. Again, a typical christian response to someone with other opinions. Snickers. Assumptions of total superiority. Calling Fry a 'ferocious atheist' as if he goes around savaging religious people. Christians used to burn people at the stake for disagreeing, but let us just forget that now, right?

  66. I think Fry wasn't being honest. His rant is probably a sublimation (I think that's the word) for his homosexuality. He's not even allowed into any religion, so maybe this is why he is angry?

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